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Cire’s view of "albatrus"

Cire (pen name) is a very dear friend of mine of long standing. We first met at Night School in 1972 and took a liking of each other the very first night even though I was a migrant with poor English. We both had young families and for years we enjoyed together the Australian bush for hundreds of barbecues. Cire is a far more intelligent man than myself as proven by the brilliant career he had in management. Notwithstanding his many successes, his friendship has remained true even through the many vicissitudes of life. It has even survived my conversion to the Lord. I have proposed to him, many times, the way of the Lord, but he has no interest in it, as shown here. The following is just a collection of recent emails we had, which are published with his consent, for I guess this could be of some benefit to some.


Cire, I have put up my Religious site, I know it is not of your interest, just info, but you may wish to have a peep at my Copyright statement on religious matters (as opposed to worldly), I would value your comments on that, thanks. As for the rest of the site, it is not for the faint hearted.

-----ooooo-----

aymon de albatrus, I had a quick look at your website - the copyright statements look fine but I'm not a lawyer!

I also had a quick look at some of the material you have referenced - I'm afraid that I can't relate to it at all - especially the bit about women - it comes across to me as having being written by an embittered old man who's got "sour grapes".  But then again, I respect the rights of people to hold their own views as long as they don't hurt anyone - just as long as those same people afford me the same courtesy.

-----ooooo-----

Cire, Thank you for answering, you are a true friend.

Regarding my site, I see that you got a little annoyed about it, but I did warn you, so I consider myself clean by having raised a security flag beforehand. Of course you cannot relate to it at all, the Word of God says this about this thing: But a natural man does not receive the things of [the] Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14). Remember that for 40 years I, myself, have lived as a secular man, so I do understand both camps well.

Surely from a natural mind set it must come across like a "bitter old man" with sour grapes for my misfortune, especially if someone knows my miserable life story, of previous. However you surely remember, since we met in ’72, that I already had this thing about modern women, long before being "bitter" (which I believe I am not; sorry yes, bitter no) about a woman who did me wrong. (I have nothing against Biblical women, but support and high admiration)

Surely you remember that, for I recollect very well the many fiery discussion we had on the argument. And to tell the truth, (as I always try to do) believe me or not, as far as I can remember, even as a kid, this thing has always been with me. We can say I have been programmed like that at birth, take it or leave it. As far as I am concerned my biblical statements are not due to an eventual lingering "resentment", I fear God and wish to walk in His statutes and these things you have pinning on me, have no part in the Kingdom of God.

But to note that i did not write all of those bad articles, actually only a few, all the rest are penned by others, so i am not the only one who thinks like that, moreover I challenge any biblical scholar to honestly prove that what i am saying is not Biblical. Note: I said: Biblical, not Worldly. My articles are definitely NOT intended to please anyone, but to be strictly Biblical for I wish to walk correctly in front of my God, at least try to, for it is Him that I need to please, not men. The motto I have made my own is: " Earnestly [study] to present yourself approved to God, a workman unashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. (2 Timothy 2:15 )" and the basis of my operate is girded by: "For do I now persuade men or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a slave of Christ. (Galatians 1:10)" Hopefully these Biblical quotations do not upset you, I need them to prove that I have a Biblical foundation for my sayings.

One of the most honest answers I ever got was from my Australian pastor (who is well qualify to comment biblically, having been, for years, the Dean of a large biblical school in Oregon). He said to me: "aymon de albatrus, what you are saying is truly written like that in the Bible, but I cannot accept it." Well I appreciated his honest answer; i did however wonder about what was he actually preaching to the congregation.

Also, to be noted that the articles on women in albatrus are just a few compared to the total number, but you seem to have highlighted the minority, can this be telling something!

Well, I cannot force you to believe that, nor I would if I could. But! Yes I have a "mission" on the women heresy of these days; that I freely admit, but that I am bitter against women (a misogynist?), I deny fully, unless, by simply quoting truthfully the Bible one becomes one. So I say: "believe as you will", but please consider the possibility that perhaps you may be a little off the mark, or at least, that my forthright expressions can be misunderstood, in the secular.

But my Lord has not left me without consolation, a most interesting development, a colleague, brother in the Lord who was a member of a group of Christian men I put together for several years before leaving Australia, has contacted me out of the blue. He was a fellow engineer, but far more intelligent than me and now is up in the Telstra managerial echelons. Well I lost contact with him then, but just a few days ago he contacted me via email, and these are his phrases (as he sees me):

aymon de albatrus my Lord's Worthy Servant

How are you my friend ? I hope the Lord's work for you in Italy is bringing you joy. I recently attended a "flea market" for want of another word in Victory Blve, you old stomping ground which brought to my mind most fond memories of our monthly gatherings in the Lord's name at your home. I still look upon these times as a real blessing and am yet to find a suitable substitute.

More recently he asked me to put together the Biblical position about "sex before marriage, (fornication)" and "abortion" because a girl from his church asked him how to relate to someone that is practicing these sinful activities:

Good & Godly Friend aymon de albatrus, Many, many thanks for the words of wisdom you have sent me on the topic of sex before marriage and abortion.

And this is what he said to her:

Dear Megan, my friend aymon de albatrus prepared this for us to consider on this topic. aymon de albatrus used to be a work colleague of mine and now lives in Italy in full time ministry as the President of the Genoa Gideon Society. I consider aymon de albatrus quite a biblical scholar (I'm sure he would disagree and shy from such a title). I suggest you brace yourself before reading, the words of aymon de albatrus are always very sharp!

As you can see my friend Phill is grossly exaggerating my abilities, but it was, nonetheless an encouragement.

In building my site I came across an American Pastor (total strange to me) for I asked his permission to translate in Italian his article about disciplining children and in the proceedings I submitted to him my article about Copyfree of Christian articles, and this is what he said: "I sense the sweet fragrance of Christ in it". Another exaggeration, methinks, but it does, nonetheless, show my attempts to have transparent attitude.

Regarding the acceptance of everyone’s views, my beloved friend, we have discussed this before and have come to the understanding that, between us, there is no problem; this is understood. As far as my behaviour with others, it is like this: the earth and everything in it belongs to The Lord for He has created ALL and keeps ALL in life, and He has commanded me, as a Christian, to proclaim the Gospel (the Good News) and there I have all the authority I can possible need for doing so. However, He has also said that I need only proclaim the Gospel, not to force it on anyone, but to proclaim It generally and if someone is interested, to explain the reason of my hope, openly and respectfully. Where It is not received, then leave and go somewhere else. No Bible bashing is required.

As for forcing views on someone else, unfortunately the secular society has generally misunderstood the Christian motivation. (Though I must admit there have been excesses). Basically a Christian witnesses Christ because it is a command of the Lord, but should not impose It, as mentioned. There is no personal interest in the Christian, but to practice the will of God. Christianity is the only organization that exists exclusively for the benefit of others. Let me give an analogy. < there is a road, it is dark and a bridge over a deep chasm has collapsed, the Christian tries desperately to stop the incoming cars, but they say: "do not bother me, respect my rights.> (incidentally there is not such thing as "rights", it is a human invention. For sure there will be none in Hell, believe it or not.)

Accept it or not, there are only two camps: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the Devil. There is none other.

If one is not in one, then he is in the other.

Cire, can you say that I ever forced my views on you? Methinks not. I know your views; that is why I warned you about my site. And, Yes, I also understand your views rather well, they are perfectly in line with the worldviews of these times, the one out of tune in this world is I, not you. So where is the problem? Remember that I had the same views for 40 years, before conversion.

You are a long time dear friend to me, and I wish you to be so for many more years (at least till my death), for I truly value your friendship. We just have different worldviews, that is clear.

Usually I try not to defend myself, but you are a dear amigo and I wished you to have more info at your disposal, for your assessment.

My unfeigned love is to you and to yours.

-----ooooo-----

aymon de albatrus, I must have not made myself clear - my critique was leveled at the author of the article on women, not you per se, as I knew that you hadn't written it, but I guess you did put it in your web-site.

Definitely not offended but I guess we see things from different view-points. I in particular do not need or want a set of rules for every situation that may arise in one's life - I believe that God gave us a brain to use and that it's up to us to use it to assess how to respond to the different things that come up in one's life. A rigid inflexible set of rules can too easily turn into fanaticism - you can see lots of evidence of that in the world today.  And even our supposedly Christian forebears had no compunction murdering people by burning them alive on the stake or torturing them unmercifully because they may have acted a little differently or expressed a belief different to the 'rules' of the day.

Inflexible rigid rules - no thanks - compassion, tolerance, acceptance of differing views - yes, as long as they do not harm the citizenry of the country.

I guess that we agree to disagree!!

-----ooooo-----

Cire, one thing I admire of you is that once you have given your friendship, you will keep it. I wish to do the same and for that I thank you much.

Forgive me for mentioning a couple things more about your latest email, just wishing you to consider these points of clarification.

For sure I have no qualms to agree to disagree agreeably. I would do this with any counterpart that is willing, but with you all the more for I consider you a worthwhile man and a bosom friend, no matter what.

Now, with your liberty, allow me to consider your points, thanks Cire:

· My Site,

· God has given brains,

· Christian murderers,

· Inflexible rules.

My Site:
Of course I put that stuff in my site, because I agree with it. I would be a hypocrite to have done otherwise, if not mad. But the point on hand was not this, it was simply to demonstrate that, besides my own articles, there were other articles of the same ilk that agreed with me, meaning that I am not the Lone Looney Tune, there are others. That was the Point, not apologising for their contents, no apologies about that for that is what I believe and wanted to broadcast.

God has given brains:
Now this is a good one. For a starter in this you admit the existence of God, and consequently of a Creator. Now do you think a reasonable and true thing that a Creator would not require anything from His creation? It seems a case of wanting it both ways, an impossible thing. But let us pass over this incongruity and come to the real meaning of the thing. It goes this way. "God has given man a Brain and a certain liberty, NOT to do his own thing, but to use both brains and liberty to put into practise what He requires of man. This means that man has been given brains to do his best to perform what God requires of him, and not to do what the man wants of his own, for this is transgressing against God’s will, that is sin. I know very well that this is a sore point with you, no surprise, for it is the same with all unbelievers, but this is so, you can accept or reject it, but cannot change it.

Christian murderers:
Well check it out with the Muslims and you will find that for them ALL the "Westerners" (especially the white ones) are Christian and therefore when they will come (as in the 600’/700/’/1500’s) they will make no distinction between Catholics and Protestants and even unbelievers for they will chop off the heads of all, because for them they are all "Christians". And you have done the same here. Those millions that have been martyred and were murdered, as you correctly say, they were put to death by the Catholics that we do not consider real Christian for they have paganised Christianity. Hold it here! We do not hate them nor we would put them at the stake, (as they have done to us) we simply say that they are no Christian at all, and all their killing was not done in the name of God (even though they say that), but by the agency of devils and therefore they cannot be mixed up with Christians, for they are not. To prove that, there is the fact that the vast majority of murdered Protestant (by Catholics) were the Calvinists, those who gave America its foundation. The truth of the matter is: "Not all that say Christian are in effect Christians". I guess you need to inform yourself a little more on this before univocally stating these accusations.

Inflexible rules:
Cire, you know that I was a true unbeliever before, (more than yourself) and that I am well informed on both camps, this you will grant me, I hope. Given this, I can absolutely assure you from the heart, please believe me, I only become free, and free indeed, when Christ came into my life. Permit me to let Jesus speak on this point: Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed. (John 8:36) and And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. (John 8:32) Indeed what you call inflexible rules did set me free, for when I was in the world I was but a Slave to it, with no freedom at all.  Sure, I believed to be free, but was not, but when Christ opened my eyes, then I did see the miserable state I was actually in.  You may disagree with this, (you will) but you cannot deny the evidence of my testimony that for me to do His will is my delight, and this not by brainwashing or oppression but by a lucid, reasonable, rational decision of my will.

Well let us leave it at that.

My best wishes to you also, dear friend, but more, a warm embrace in the liberty of Christ.

-----ooooo-----

aymon de albatrus, I understand your response and know that it comes from your heart - and I do respect that.

I guess that I look at these issues from a totally different viewpoint.  Yes, I acknowledge a God but a vastly different one to that in the bible.  You see I don't believe that the bible was written by God - it was written by people who had reasons for writing it.

It seems to me to present view of life that leaves everyone guilty all the time.  A set of rules so strict that everyone has to fail them.  Once you have a more or less permanent sense of guilt installed you have the basis for control.  I cannot conceive of a God who is supposedly good setting up such a set of rules - it just doesn't make sense to me at all and it doesn't ring true.  It's just too convenient for church and state to set up a cosy duopoly to keep the masses subjugated, controlled and prepared to be cannon fodder if/as needed.

I acknowledge that a lot of what is written in the bible seems to make good sense with some guidelines to aspire to, but not as a consequence to be belittled and made to feel guilty for even a non-holy thought!!

To your commentary in the Word document -I seem to recall that the Puritan Fathers in New England also put some people to death on the stake (I do agree though that most of these despicable acts seem to have been perpetrated by the catholics, but by no means all).  Look how many catholics were killed by protestants in England a few hundred years ago. And even today, catholics and protestants killing eachother out of religious intolerance and hatred in Ireland - just plain madness IMHO, whipped up by the churches.  Now don't get me wrong, I have little time for them but try and take each person as I find them, no matter what religious persuasion they aspire to - Buddhists, Muslims, Taoists, Hindu - whatever.

Ah well, I guess we'll continue to agree to disagree, and I have no motive to try and change your viewpoint - none whatsoever - quite the contrary - obviously you have found an environment within which you are comfortable and for that I'm glad.

Best wishes old buddy,

-----ooooo-----

Cire, you know how much respect and liking I have for you. You got this gift to come good, all the time.  I do not seem to have that ability, well God knows.

I will not comment point by point your response, I guess enough said, but I must reiterate a few things:

Believe me I am telling you the truth, and I guess that you know enough about me to say that I am not a gullible man, I forever question everything, and this I can honestly declare to you:

1. Since the Lord has converted me to Himself, I have NEVER found myself guilty at all, instead I sense in me a liberty that the world has not, and cannot take away from me. Jesus Himself said: "If the Son of man (Jesus) set you free, you are free indeed"  and I can testify to that with all my being.  So this is diametrically opposed to your statement.

2. Rules!!! Well God, the creator of all, has given only 10 Rules. In Italy it is estimated that there are about 130,000 (and growing) in Australia maybe 30,000+ that are strictly obeyed, but we seem to be happy with these thousands of strangling laws, for example take the Road rules, but not with God's only 10. One thing which is not understood by unbelievers is GRACE, that set a believer FREE; of course not, for they have no experience apropos.

3. Regarding violence, please do not forget that not everyone who says "I am a Christian is truly so", need to discern.  The Lord Jesus testifies to that: Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will go into the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the pleasure of my Father in heaven.  A great number will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, were we not prophets in your name, and did we not by your name send out evil spirits, and by your name do works of power?  And then will I say to them, I never knew  you: go from me, you workers of evil. (Matthew 7:21-23 )

Cire, thanks for the opportunity you gave me to express my beliefs, it is great and a blessing to have a true friend like you.

Incidentally the way the phrase was taught to me, is:

"Let us agree to disagree, agreeably"

-----ooooo-----

aymon de albatrus, agreeable, "Let us agree to disagree, agreeably" seems an agreeable approach that we can agree on, agreeably!

 

aymon de albatrus